Artist Interview: Mark Cross, Mixing for Broadcast
Interview by Marsha Vdovin
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Mark Cross at Groovemasters
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Careers in audio? Are there any? What am I going to tell her? Move to L.A.-but even there major studios are closing left and right. Except for the few superstar exceptions, the record companies are not giving bands money for big recording sessions. The idea of getting a job in a recording studio and working your way up seems to be pretty much just a fantasy these days.
My choice to interview Mark Cross this month was inspired by the fact that he works in a part of the industry where there is job growth for audio professionals. Mark is a music mixer in film and broadcast. He's worked extensively as a Pro Tools engineer for Randy Newman and as a music mixer for seven years on the NBC blockbuster "ER." He's also composing music for a new show on Nicholodeon called "Wow Wow Wubbzy."
Mark grew up playing in a band and was fortunate enough to attend Berklee College of Music, receiving a really solid music education, which is a must when working with film and TV scores. After school, he went to L.A. and worked his way up the ladder. I wanted to find out more about his background and more specifically what it means to mix music for television-and how Universal Audio fits in.
Do you use the Universal Audio hardware in your broadcast work?
All the time
I'd like to get really specific about that, because it's something we never have really covered, and I think it would be really interesting to talk about exactly what broadcast mixing entails and how you use the UA gear in that. Let's talk directly about "ER" and be really specific: what your schedule's like for "ER," when you get assets, when you actually need to go in. What's your average week is like?
Our average week begins on Monday when the composer of "ER," Martin Davich, spots the show.
Can you explain spotting?
Spotting the show is when he sits down with the director and with the music editor, and they'll find out exactly where they want music written for each section of the episode. For example, on "ER" they have anywhere from seven to ten music cues throughout the four acts. So at the spotting session they figure out well, at this part in Act I we want this really dramatic music, or there's this thing at the end of the show where it's a very emotional piece, that sort of thing. Or occasionally we'll do theme shows, where some of the doctors go to Africa, and they'll say, "We want African music here."
“When I was learning how to record things, it wasn't just "put a compressor on it," it was "patch in the 1176," or "patch in the LA-2A." It wasn't until later on that I realized, oh, well that's not just a compressor, it's the best compressor.”
We also collaborate with other musicians . . . For example, when we did the African episode, we worked with Youssou D'Nour and a bunch of different musicians, which was really great!
So he actually has the budget to bring in musicians, and doesn't have to do everything virtually, or electronically? You can actually record parts on a stage?
Yeah. In fact, it's not uncommon for us to do; we do twenty-two shows a season and it's not uncommon to have four or five of those with a full orchestra.
Wow. That's surprising to me since more and more feature films are cutting out full orchestral scores and expecting the composer to create everything virtually.
It's great. It's really neat. And that's just starting to come back. A lot of shows are just starting to do that.
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Mark Cross and Martin Davich at Capitol
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Well, you know, about five years ago they asked Marty if he and I were interested in doing something like that and of course we said yes. So they found the money for it and we did it. The executives were just blown away at how incredible it sounded. So they said, "Look, next year we're going to let you do two episodes." Then after that they said, "Next year we're going to let you do four episodes." Slowly but surely they're just giving us a bigger budget. Because, as much as people complain about budget cuts and that, the producers on the show really respond to that sort of thing. And they're saying, "Hey, this is great! We really encourage you to do more of this. We'll find the money." It's a great feeling to work for people that really appreciate what you're doing.
That must be very rewarding. Let's go back to spotting the show.
He spots the show, then he'll go back to his studio and write the music, which will take anywhere from a day to two days. Then I'll get the call to come in. I'll take, say, the seven to ten music cues, and I will mix them. I'll do a stereo mix as well as a split-out stem mix, meaning that I'll separate the drums on a stereo stem, I'll separate the piano, the strings, the guitars-all of the elements, in case they need to go in and just pull something a little bit, or whatever.
"ER" is a very sound-effects-driven show, and if you've seen it, you know it's one of the loudest hospitals in the history of the world. So it's not uncommon that we might lose an oboe to someone screaming bloody murder [laughs] and that's just par for the course; that's just how it is on every show. They want you to split out the stereo mix as much as you can so when they do put it up against the dialog and effects, there's just a little bit more control. So I do a full mix, with the stems.
This is where I use the UA gear. I use them for bus compression on my stems, so each stem will have its own compressor. It will also have its own reverb, or delay, or whatever the case may be. I'm using the 1176s and the LA-2As across my whole mix, as well as on the individual elements. For example, I'm mixing a show right now, and I just used an 1176 this morning on a big old casa drum, just to give it a little bit more juice. [Laughs.] It was really cool. Turned out really nice.
I will do all this in Pro Tools; then when I'm done, I submit it to the network and then they do the final dub. Hopefully the sound effects don't really bury our mix too much. [Laughs.]
And then they also have to do a 5.1 mix, right? Another use for the stems?
Yes. Occasionally, they are doing a 5.1. We're not mixing in 5.1 because they just started doing it this year. And when they do that, more often than not they're just using our stereo mix, and they'll use a Dolby plug-in that basically simulates surround from a stereo source.
Do you think your approach is going to change as 5.1 becomes more of a standard in broadcast?
Absolutely. I can see it getting a lot more dynamic. I can see using less and less of the compression, moving stuff around a little bit more and the reverbs getting a little bit wider. Which is very exciting. It's what they're doing in film, because I still do a lot of work in film. I work with Randy Newman a lot on his scores. Those are all done in surround as well. So I can see the television aspect going more and more like that, which is really exciting. They're definitely doing that with cable and HBO, so that's pretty cool.
So, obviously, when you're working in film, and working with a big Randy Newman score, you have a lot of dynamic range. And then when you're working in TV, you have to consider that everything's being ultra-compressed and that you're competing with all of these effects and dialog.
Exactly.
Do you have any Universal Audio hardware tricks that you would use specifically in your TV mixing environment?
I'm not sure if I'm doing anything differently than what most people are doing. I usually will just set up the stem by calibrating it with a 1 Hz tone and just making sure that I'm hitting the compressor at . . . not a really hard level. I don't know how to describe it. I guess somewhere in between. Certainly, on the Randy Newman stuff, there's really no compression on the stems. That's just coming right off the console, because we have, like you said, [a] larger dynamic range in film.
But definitely setting up the compressors on each stem, so that when something really, really hot hits, I'm getting anywhere from 3 to 5 dB of gain reduction. Which I guess is pretty substantial. And the reason I use the UA stuff is because, not only does it do the gain reduction, but it adds that cool little color that we all grew up with, when we were using 1176s and LA-2As. And that adds just a little bit more musicality to the mix. Which is, I guess, one of the reasons why I choose that over the other limiters.
Are you also involved with the recording? Especially when there's an orchestra, are you there?
Yes.
What studio do you use?
Well, if it's an orchestra, or even as small as a string quartet, we'll go somewhere like Capitol Studios in Hollywood.
Nice.
We go to Signet Sound in Hollywood as well. We used to go to O'Henry. However, they're no longer around, which is unfortunate. And then sometimes when it's just a really small string quartet, we'll go to the Firehouse Studios out in Pasadena, which is a nice little studio in downtown Pasadena, We're located in Pasadena, so it's really nice for us. It's like two minutes from our studio.
So where do you mix? You don't go to the official "ER" mixing stage? You're mixing in your own studio?
We are mixing in our own studio. So when we record the orchestra, we'll go out to Capitol or Signet to record them, then we'll bring the material back to our studio in Pasadena and then we mix everything down there. From there we deliver to Warner Brothers in Burbank.
Do you share a studio with Martin Davich, or do you also have a home studio?
I have a home studio as well. Marty has his studio in Pasadena, and that's where we do all the work for "ER." When I write the music for the cartoon for Nickelodeon, I do that in my home studio. My home studio has a ton of UA gear.
Let's talk about your home studio. It's Pro Tools based . . .
Yeah, it's a Pro Tools HD system.
And what type of monitors?
I'm using Genelec 1031As.
Nice. Do you mix in Pro Tools?
I mix in Pro Tools and in Logic, because I'm using Logic to sequence. I'll go back and forth. I present it and deliver the show in Pro Tools, but I do all the creation in Logic.
I've seen a lot of film composers working that way. What UA gear do you have?
I have the 2-610-actually, I have three. I have the dual 1176 limiter, and I also have the reissue LA-2A. Those are all the outboard things that I have. In the computer, the software, I have the UA plug-ins. I have the LA-2A and the 1176. And I use those plug-ins a lot.
Do you use them on your composing, or are you using them in your mixing, the "ER" mixing also?
One of the techniques that I use a lot, because we're always working with other musicians, whether it's on the cartoon or especially on "ER"-well, a good example is last week's episode, where the show was book-ended by this really nice piece that Marty wrote, which featured a vocalist, Lixbeth Scott. The vocal chain, which is the chain I use all the time, whether it's with Shelby Lynne or Jennifer Warnes or Lixbeth, is always a U47 through one side of the dual 610 mic pre, into the LA-2A. I always record like that, and I usually get about 2 to 3 dB of gain reduction when I record, which is a little more than most. I know a lot of guys will probably think that's a little over the top, but I like the way it sounds.
And in addition to that, I'll use the LA-2A again when I mix down. I'll insert it in the chain, to get a little bit more compression in the mixdown, which helps the vocals sit so much better in the mix. The thing about the LA-2A, a technique, the reason why I use the LA-2A, is because it sounds like a vintage classic vocal from a '50s record, or a '60s record or a '70s record. As opposed to just like some generic plug-in that'll just compress it. The LA-2A will actually give the source character; that's one of the main reasons why I use it.
It really does. I grew up listening to the radio, so I can really identify with pop songs or hit songs, just the way they would jump out of the speakers. And it wasn't until I started working with Bill Bottrell that I realized what a vintage tube mic through a Class-A mic pre and a really good compressor [laughs] . . . that's the sound! Ever since then, I've been using the LA-2A because that's the sound. And it's the sound that I grew up with. It was the sound from my mom and dad's Frank Sinatra records, it was the sound from the Beatles records that I bought when I was a kid. People identify with it. The other thing is that my clients, they hear it too, and when they get excited, then of course, I get called back. So that's another main reason.
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Mark Cross and Bill Bottrell
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Love working in television. I've been on "ER" for the last seven seasons. First of all, the people that I work for are just the most supportive people that I've ever worked for. The John Wells Productions. They love what we do, they encourage us to push the envelope and they support us financially. When we want to do something really crazy that costs a little bit more money, like record an orchestra, as long as we explain why we're doing it, more often than not, they let us. So it's great to have that sort of support. Plus, it's a nice, stable gig, which is also very good to have, especially in these times.
I think the pace would be fun.
It is. It's a faster pace than most, but I'm sort of used to that sort of thing. You certainly don't have two hours to get a drum sound or anything like that. You usually have like five to ten minutes. [Laughs.] So you really have to make sure that your game is up. But that's a challenge and I enjoy those sort of challenges. It keeps me alert. That's another reason why I dig it, because it's a challenge.
Do you watch the show?
I do. I do watch the show. In fact, I try to watch it through my hi-fi system, to get a little idea on how the mixes are going. Ironically, I watched last week's episode, the one I told you about with Lixbeth Scott, and for some reason, I just listened through my trashy TV speakers and I really dug the way it sounded. It turned out really good. It helps give me a barometer on how and what I'm doing.
That's something that you don't always get. When I was doing records, you'd spend a year or two doing a record, then it wouldn't come out for a year or two, or you wouldn't get on the radio for a year or two, and by then you'd be like . . . [Laughs.] It's just nice to get that sort of feedback instantly.
Yeah, I'm sure it is. Do you have any advice for some young person who thinks they want to be a recording engineer, which is kind of becoming a dying art?
Yeah. I guess, boy, what would I say? Go to school, and study hard. [Laughs.] And listen to a lot of records and try to figure out what it is you're hearing. That was what I always did. Whenever I heard something that was really, really cool, I would try to figure out how they got that sound. Whether I would research it, or I would ask people, or just talk with my friends. I'm not sure if that's good advice or not. Does that help?
How does someone break in? How does someone move to L.A. and break in to the business?
You know, I came out here when I was young and I just got a job as an assistant engineer and I worked 100 hours a week, eight days a week, for little or no money. But after a couple of years, I figured out what I wanted to do, and it really gave me a good overview of the business. I think that's how a lot of successful people did it, they just came out and immersed themselves in as much as they could. Especially when they're young and have all that energy. [Laughs.]
Yeah. They can work a million hours. It seems like there's a lot of recording schools that are just pumping these kids out. With so many studios going down, I'm just wondering if we're going to have a lot of kids running around L.A. trying to get engineering jobs that just don't exist. But it seems that there's still opportunities outside of the standard rock model. That's why I really wanted to talk a lot about broadcast, as a growing field for being an audio engineer, or mixer, or composer, etc.
Well, broadcast is growing. The neat thing about broadcast engineering is that there's always going to be programs. And they're always going to need someone to record the dialog, or edit the sound effects, or record the music, or do the final mix, so that's very encouraging. It is a drag . . . I personally got into this business to make records, then to see all these studios, especially in the last three to five years, drop like flies . . . It's just so depressing.
But at the same time, you just keep going, you find other ways to stay involved. This was a way for me to stay involved, musically, to get into broadcast engineering work with film scoring and television scoring. It just seems like that's just where the business is going right now, at least as far as making a living. I know that people are still making records, but it's just on a lower budget and more in a home studio situation.
Yeah. And a lot of people are mixing them themselves, mastering them themselves.
And I don't necessarily agree with that. You brought up a point about engineering being a dying breed. There are these guys that I grew up admiring, you know, the Elliot Scheiners, the Bill Bottrells, the Bruce Swediens, these serious guys with great ears and incredible techniques, you just don't see that any more. I've been very lucky to work with a few of these guys and see how they do it. It's just so awe-inspiring to see these people work, to see how they carve the sound. To work with someone like that for four or five years, or ten years, or whatever, the way these other guys . . . like Ed Cherney, I think, used to be a second engineer to Bruce Swedien, and you can definitely hear that in Ed's mixes. He's such a great mixer, such a great engineer, you can tell that he was brought up the right way. And it would be such a drag to see that disappear. You know what I'm saying?
Definitely. That's something I think about a lot. And I think that kids should be taught how to use tape, and how to splice, and have that background.
I agree with you 100 percent. I think that adds character and makes people realize where this business came from. And I guess another thing I would say as far as education is that if there was any comment I could make to the industry is that I would really encourage mentoring. These guys that I just talked about, who are working, who have been working at the highest level, to take on some young kid, not just for a year, but to take them on for five or six years, and help these people, so they can carry the torch and not just set up a microphone, but set up the right microphone for the right source, and put it through the right mic pre, or the best mic pre for that situation, with the best limiter, and give it a little distance, instead of putting it right up, so you can get a little depth . . .
I think that it's a real craft that we have to keep alive.
We have to keep it alive, and I think the best way to do that is keep the awareness up there, to let people know that not only is someone like Bill Bottrell a great engineer, or Ed Cherney, but there's a reason they're a great engineer. Listen to their records, this is what they did, and this is how they did it. It wasn't just because they just showed up. They didn't just phone it in. They spent a lot of time honing their skills. It's not something that happens over night.
Is there one big, amazing classic record that has a sound that you always want to emulate?
Oh, wow. That's a good question. Yeah. I guess it would be any Beatles record, or any Steely Dan record. [Laughs.] I remember the first album I ever bought was Revolver, and I was in third grade. I had no idea what it was that I had purchased, I just knew it was the Beatles and they had a cool cartoon. When I put it on, the first song I heard was "Taxman," and it just knocked my socks off! I still look to that album, sonically. I can also remember when I first got hip to what a sonically good record was and I went out and bought Steely Dan's Asia and Gaucho. I've always used those as sort of a benchmark, because those were just incredible records, and incredible-sounding records, and all of the above.
Elliot Scheiner, who engineered those Steely Dan albums, is still doing amazing work. I have his DVD-A of Beck's Guero in 5.1.
Yeah. He's an incredible mixer. He's definitely one of those guys who has that magic touch.
Well, he learned from Phil Ramone.
I was looking at the Moondance record, and he did that. [Laughs.]
I recently noticed that too, because we had that out. That's one of those records with "the sound."
I know, sonically, it's like, Oh my God, what a great job Elliot did on that record. Oh my God. The funny thing about it is I don't think they spelled his name right. [Laughs].
Did you have a mentor?
Yes, and I believe in the long-term mentoring system. I was fortunate to come up in this business working with legendary producer-engineer Bill Bottrell. I started as an assistant and worked my way up. This relationship led to recording and mixing the Grammy Award-winning album I Am Shelby Lynne. I often refer to that time in my life as the most rewarding professionally. I didn't become a zillionaire financially, but what I learned about the art of making records and working in the industry was priceless. Not a day goes by without using something that I learned in those five years. I know that long-term thinking and planning has become unfashionable these days, but I have found it to be invaluable throughout my life and career.
Is there anything you want to add? I think we have a lot of really good information.
I think that about covers it. Like I said, as far as UA stuff goes, I love using that stuff. It's always a first choice for me. It has been, long before I even realized what it was. It was how I was brought up. When I was learning how to record things, it wasn't just "put a compressor on it," it was "patch in the 1176," or "patch in the LA-2A." It wasn't until later on that I realized, oh, well that's not just a compressor, it's the best compressor. [Laughs.] So I guess that's some of the things that I would add.
It's great that NBC and ER producers are so supportive. I feel so lucky to work with the great team at Universal Audio.
It sounds like you're in a really good situation, and like I said, my situation with "ER" seems really similar, so to work with people that really support you, I mean it just makes all the difference. We've all had really crappy jobs. When you get a good one, you really appreciate it. [Laughs.]
Epilogue: In the end of my mentoring meeting with the young woman, after finding out more about her, I pointed her towards a career in music supervision for film and TV.
ER is on NBC Thursday nights at 10 p.m.
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